#FightICEwithfire

We now have a hashtag. You have to admit it is a catchy slogan.

It goes without saying that a hashtag on its own does not protect people from being raided. Even printing it out on a T-shirt or a sign and then wearing the T-shirt or bringing the sign to a protest, recording a video of yourself protesting and then posting the video on Facebook and then getting lots of thumbs up for it, does not protect people from being raided. The only thing that will protect people from being raided is to actually follow the advice of the hashtag.

When the Fourth Amendment is being ignored by government (as is currently the case, since a valid warrant must specify a particular individual to be arrested in relation to a particular incident of crime, so when ICE raids private property and treats any and all people of ”non-white” appearance found inside as guilty until proven innocent, they are acting without valid warrant):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

the Second Amendment comes into play:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Otherwise, more of this will happen:

Daniel Ramirez Medina, a 23-year-old with no criminal record who was brought to the US from Mexico when he was seven years old, was taken into custody last Friday in Seattle.

“this is the blueprint for mass deportation. Their enforcement priorities are so broad they include everybody.”

Coupled with the recent Ice raids, “It adds up to a new policy that we’re going to remove anybody we can get our hands on,” said Leopold, former president of the American Immigration Lawyers Association.

Ice agents asked Ramirez: “Are you legally here?” and when he explained that he had a work permit, officers took him in, according to his lawsuit. At a processing center, when Ramirez again told agents about his Daca status, an officer allegedly replied: “It doesn’t matter, because you weren’t born in this country.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/15/seattle-daca-dreamer-arrested-judge-trump-immigration

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64 Responses to #FightICEwithfire

  1. Hypnotix says:

    The slogan is awesome, kudos to the one who thought of it!

    I think the banner’s design would benefit from a minor change, though: the ‘f’ in ‘fire’ would look better if it was capitalised; the ‘w’ in ‘with’ too, perhaps. Otherwise, I love the way it looks. :)

  2. Board owner says:

    Sick burn, bro. Figurative #shotsfired, just needs to translate into actual shots fired. ICE melts easily, even better if someone can use a flammenwerfer. Napalm should do the job nicely too.

  3. Atmajyoti says:

    I’m not going to lie, the thought of booby-trapping my house and front yard has crossed my mind on several occasions. Also, digging a tunnel from under my house to an adjacent storm drain has been a fantasy also. I used to dig a lot when I was younger; for a while I did want to be an archeologist. When I was living in England my friend actually found a Roman coin in his backyard. We used to find bits of pottery all the time.

  4. Atmajyoti says:

    With a little mechanical ingenuity a person could technically setup an array of firearms that could be aimed and fired via a camera and a laptop. That would certainly be a force multiplier!

  5. Atmajyoti says:

    I’ve actually had fantasies about doing that with a .50 cal machine gun, not going to lie…

  6. AS says:

    This just keeps getting worse:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/federal-immigration-raids-net-many-without-criminal-records-sowing-fear/2017/02/16/a37e5e76-f486-11e6-a9b0-ecee7ce475fc_story.html

    As the two men and others crossed the street toward a shopping center on Feb. 8, about a dozen ICE agents ordered them up against the wall of a grocery store, questioning them about their immigration status. According to Ramirez and Brewster, the ICE agents then indiscriminately arrested seven of the homeless men — all of them Hispanic — and packed them into a van full of other detainees.

    In Chicago, a student called her high school teacher to tell him that ICE had raided her home the night before, arresting her father, an undocumented immigrant whose criminal record included only traffic violations, the teacher said. In Centreville, Va., a woman told officials at London Towne Elementary School that a student’s father had been arrested after dropping their son off at school that morning. And in the Baltimore parking lot of a Walgreens, ICE agents arrested a barber and a local business owner who advocates said also had no criminal records.

    ICE officials acknowledged that at least 186 of those apprehended in recent days had no criminal history.

    See? They don’t even bother to deny it! THEY DON’T CARE ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK. But I suspect they still care about not being shot. So what is the local government waiting for?

    “It was hard to not leave that meeting and believe that the Trump administration is going to target as many immigrants as possible,” said Rep. Joaquin Castro (D-Tex.), who attended the meeting.

    “There are cases of mistaken identity, cases of people who were passengers in cars that were pulled over, cases of people who are married to U.S. citizens and who have children who are born and live in this country,” said Gutiérrez, who has spoken with many of those detained in Austin.

    A government social worker for Durham County, N.C., said that the number of Hispanic residents seeking assistance had dropped off rapidly in recent days amid swirling rumors about an ICE checkpoint at a Durham intersection and ICE agents making arrests in a supermarket parking lot.

    “Today, I haven’t gotten one Hispanic client in the entire check-in today,” said the social worker, a longtime government employee who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly. “That never happens … They think that when they come here for assistance, that they’re going to be on some sort of invisible list.”

    This is what I feared (and no doubt part of the intention behind the raids). Unless local people view local government as committed opposition to the Feds, the actions of the Feds will cause local people to lose trust even in local government. And the only way for local government to convince local people to view them as opposed to the Feds is to order local police to open fire on the Feds. There is no other way. Mere talk will not regain local people’s trust; only action will.

    Also, a perceptive comment here:

    http://washingtonpost.com/national/federal-immigration-raids-net-many-without-criminal-records-sowing-fear/2017/02/16/a37e5e76-f486-11e6-a9b0-ecee7ce475fc_story.html?outputType=comment&commentID=washingtonpost.com/ECHO/item/4956364d-887c-415f-ac36-598f76fe01ee

    You can’t get welfare if you’re here illegally, not even in uber liberal San Francisco, where I am now. So, obviously, when the article says “Hispanics” not applying for assistance -and NOT illegal or undocumented or aliens…. just “Hispanics”, and yet all the republicans comment about how good it is that “illegals” aren’t getting welfare. It shows that, for republicans, the difference between “Hispanic” and “Illegal” is nonexistent.

    Nowadays, it seems that people here legally, with Visas, can be dismissed with the stroke of a pen and it’s for the good of the country. Then you’ve got people with perminant resident cards that took years to get…. boom, deport them, they have no rights.

    how long before naturalized citizens are on that list?

    This is what I was saying. So it’s good to see more people getting it. But do they get that firearms are required to fight this?

    And why are the receiving countries so placidly accepting these deportations? Why aren’t they requiring the US to incontrovertibly prove for each and every case that the particular individual they want to deport is from the particular country they want to deport the individual to? Why has apparently the whole world forgotten about burden of proof? We saw this explicitly in the Colohoax and now we are seeing it implicitly here (to say nothing of Trump’s delusions about voter fraud…..).

    @Atmajyoti

    “I’ve actually had fantasies about doing that with a .50 cal machine gun, not going to lie…”

    Why fantasize when you could make history?

  7. John Johnson says:

    “Nowadays, it seems that people here legally, with Visas, can be dismissed with the stroke of a pen and it’s for the good of the country. Then you’ve got people with perminant resident cards that took years to get…. boom, deport them, they have no rights.

    how long before naturalized citizens are on that list?

    Trump praised FDR for putting American citizens of Japanese heritage into concentration camps… So it’s probably not long before naturalized citizens are tyrannized just the same.
    http://nypost.com/2015/12/09/trump-compares-himself-to-fdr-as-he-defends-muslim-ban/

    In fact, if complex and detailed databases of Hispanics and Muslims don’t already exist, the government (with help from their private-sector front groups) can whip them up effortlessly:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/11/20/just-so-you-know-the-government-almost-certainly-already-has-a-list-of-muslims/

    Of course, the government already has a list of naturalized citizens (how else would they keep track of who they have issued citizenship to?)

    ——-

    As a bonus, here is one of the grievances against George III listed in the Declaration of Independence:

    “He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migration hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.”

    This grievance is listed 7th out of over two dozen.

  8. John Johnson says:

    Americans on both the left and right like to appeal to the founders of the US in order to lend support to their beliefs. What would they have said on this issue?

    If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual State. In a single State, if the persons entrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair. The usurpers, clothed with the forms of legal authority, can too often crush the opposition in embryo. The smaller the extent of the territory, the more difficult will it be for the people to form a regular or systematic plan of opposition, and the more easy will it be to defeat their early efforts.” -Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28

    [Here he is saying that state-level governments have a duty to resist and overthrow the national-level government should Trump a tyrant who betrays the people take power. By extension, this means local-level governments should resist the state-level government, should it be tyrannical, etc., because it becomes increasing difficult for citizens to stop the tyranny as you move down each organizational level of government, since each level is less powerful than the last.]

    “The obstacles to usurpation and the facilities of resistance increase with the increased extent of the state, provided the citizens understand their rights and are disposed to defend them. The natural strength of the people in a large community, in proportion to the artificial strength of the government, is greater than in a small, and of course more competent to a struggle with the attempts of the government to establish a tyranny. But in a confederacy the people, without exaggeration, may be said to be entirely the masters of their own fate. Power being almost always the rival of power, the general government will at all times stand ready to check the usurpations of the state governments, and these will have the same disposition towards the general government. The people, by throwing themselves into either scale, will infallibly make it preponderate. If their rights are invaded by either, they can make use of the other as the instrument of redress.

    It may safely be received as an axiom in our political system, that the State governments will, in all possible contingencies, afford complete security against invasions of the public liberty by the national authority. Projects of usurpation cannot be masked under pretenses so likely to escape the penetration of select bodies of men, as of the people at large. The legislatures will have better means of information. They can discover the danger at a distance; and possessing all the organs of civil power, and the confidence of the people, they can at once adopt a regular plan of opposition, in which they can combine all the resources of the community. They can readily communicate with each other in the different States, and unite their common forces for the protection of their common liberty.” -Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28

    [If federal, state, and local-level government officials are not doing their duty (bolded text), then they are betraying the people.]

    “When will the time arrive that the federal government can raise and maintain an army capable of erecting a despotism over the great body of the people of an immense empire, who are in a situation, through the medium of their State governments, to take measures for their own defense, with all the celerity, regularity, and system of independent nations? The apprehension may be considered as a disease, for which there can be found no cure in the resources of argument and reasoning.” -Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28

    Interestingly, the wording of some early state constitutions make gun ownership sound more like a duty than a passive “right”:

    NEW YORK CONVENTION (July 7, 1788):

    That the militia should always be kept well organized, armed and disciplined, and include, according to past usages of the states, all the men capable of bearing arms, and that no regulations tending to render the general militia useless and defenceless, by establishing select corps of militia, of distinct bodies of military men, not having permanent interests and attachments to the community, ought to be made.

    NEW YORK CONVENTION (July 26, 1788):

    That the people have the right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, including the body of the people capable of bearing arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state.

    RHODE ISLAND RATIFICATION CONVENTION (May 29, 1790):

    XVII. That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, including the body of the people capable of bearing arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state.

    http://www.madisonbrigade.com/library_bor_2nd_amendment.htm

    “Whereas civil-rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as military forces, which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.” -Tench Coxe, in Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution

    “Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American…[T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.” -Tench Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

    “Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive.” -Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787).

    “By thus circumscribing the plan, it will be possible to have an excellent body of well-trained militia, ready to take the field whenever the defense of the State shall require it. This will not only lessen the call for military establishments, but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens.” -Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 29

    “The militia is the natural defense of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpation of power by rulers. The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of the republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally … enable the people to resist and triumph over them.” -Joseph Story, Supreme Court Justice, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, p. 3:746-7, 1833

    Bonus quote from a Democrat:

    “Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of citizens to keep and bear arms. This is not to say that firearms should not be very carefully used, and that definite safety rules of precaution should not be taught and enforced. But the right of citizens to bear arms is just one more guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible.” -Hubert Humphrey, c. 1960

  9. 100101 says:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/25/us/ice-immigrant-deportations-trump.html?_r=0

    “Agents are, in fact, predominantly male and have often served in the military, with a police department or both. New agents take a five-week Spanish language program as well as firearms training; they also learn driving maneuvers and have to pass seven written examinations and a physical-fitness test that includes an obstacle course.”

    Food for thought!

  10. Atmajyoti says:

    It was all just rhetoric from Trump though, many people will still say…

  11. AS says:

    http://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/23/us/california-immigrant-safe-houses/

    The purchase of this home is part of a network formed by Los Angeles religious leaders across faiths in the wake of Donald Trump’s election. The intent is to shelter hundreds, possibly thousands of undocumented people in safe houses across Southern California.

    The goal is to offer another sanctuary beyond religious buildings or schools, ones that require federal authorities to obtain warrants before entering the homes.

    Hoover, 37, wasn’t an active member during the Sanctuary Movement of the 1980s when US congregations across faiths resisted federal law and provided shelter for Central Americans fleeing violence in their home countries. Many congregations offered direct sanctuary, housing the undocumented immigrants, while others offered food and legal assistance.

    The Rapid Response Team mirrors that structure, but goes one step further by also incorporating private homes, which offer a higher level of constitutional protection than houses of worship and an ability to make it harder for federal agents to find undocumented immigrants.

    In the hours after Trump’s initial executive order on immigration, calls between religious organizers picked up, and the network rapidly grew. Hoover estimates the underground network could hide 100 undocumented people today. Soon, he believes, they could hide thousands.

    Hoover points out that’s a tiny fraction of the estimated one million undocumented immigrants in Los Angeles county.

    http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/deportation-threat-inspires-new-sanctuary-response-in-seattle-area/

    the vestry of Saint Mark’s Episcopal Cathedral devoted most of a retreat to considering whether to become a “sanctuary hub,” said the Very Rev. Steven Thomason, the church’s dean and rector. The vote among the church’s 18 leaders was unanimously in favor, reinforcing the vestry’s December statement pledging to “block, interfere, and obstruct the mass deportations of immigrants.”

    She showed him examples of a valid and invalid warrant. Only the former would allow an agent to enter a home.

    And she gave him a red card he could hand to any agent, indicating he was declining permission to enter. It reads, in part: “I choose to exercise my constitutional rights.”

    Well, at least our side is picking up on the point about warrants. But our more important point remains: what do you do next if the agents – and I promise they will – refuse to acknowledge the need for a valid warrant? Choosing to exercise your constitutional “rights” does not mean showing the agent a red card. A red card is just a red card, similar to how a protest sign is just a protest sign. If the agent refuses to acknowledge your red card, what then? Choosing to exercise your constitutional “rights” means OPENING FIRE ON THE AGENT. The agent can refuse to acknowledge your bullets, but your bullets will still hit him. That’s the difference between bullets and red cards. I repeat, as long as our side is unwilling to take this step, it should not expect to win.

  12. Good new slogan and accompanying hashtag. I made one for the safety pin hashtag that was announced months ago:
    https://swordofelysium.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/safety-pin-activism-badge_1.png

  13. AS says:

    I told you so:

    Federal immigration agents in Oregon showed up at the home of a so-called “dreamer” over the weekend and whisked him away without a warrant

    “They didn’t have a warrant, and were told they couldn’t come in, but they wouldn’t stop banging on the door,” he said.

    Rodriguez’s sister said she heard the pounding and went to get her brother after two people asked for him, CNN affiliate KATU reported. He went outside and told the people he was a DACA participant working to become a citizen.

    “They put him in handcuffs and took him,” the sister was quoted as saying.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2017/03/27/us/portland-dreamer-ice-arrest/index.html

    Those agents should have been shot. It would have been justified self-defence against kidnapping, which is what “arrest” without warrant is.

  14. Gallery Guy says:

    @AS

    I’m aware of an acquaintance of mine, living nearby, who could easily be targeted by ICE, along with her husband and children, too. I’m thinking about disciplining, organizing and arming myself and others together soon. Got any suggestions?

  15. AS says:

    @GG

    “I’m aware of an acquaintance of mine, living nearby, who could easily be targeted by ICE, along with her husband and children, too. I’m thinking about disciplining, organizing and arming myself and others together soon. Got any suggestions?”

    http://aryanism.net/politics/beyond-propaganda/preparedness/

    http://aryanism.net/politics/beyond-propaganda/paramilitary/

    Pandorastop, leader of Lion’s Shield, is our paramilitary expert; if he is around I hope he can drop in to offer his advice.

    Make sure you have a trusted lawyer on your team and run through various conflict scenarios with him to make sure your people have a solid defence should it go to court. From a perspective of pure ethical principle (which is all I know about) ICE is definitely in the wrong, but you need to be able to cite detailed legal violations (which I am unqualified to help you with). Make sure you record on camera everything that happens during combat.

    Another valuable person to have on your team is a first-aider, in case your own troops get shot.

    Tactically, it would seem most effective for the shooters to shoot from windows on the opposite side of the street than that of the house which the agents are raiding, and preferably from at least two different angles and elevations simultaneously. As soon as the agents enter private property, the victims inside must send an instant message to the neighbours alerting of a home invasion by multiple armed intruders and calling for emergency help. The neighbours can then take position and take aim while the victims stall the agents. The neighbours must not open fire until the victims send a second instant message confirming that the agents have no valid warrant (make sure everyone knows beforehand what a valid warrant looks like!!!). As soon as this is confirmed, one neighbour should immediately call the local police while all other neighbours open fire, shooting to kill as quickly as possible. This is also to maximize shooter safety, as the less time it takes to finish them off, the less danger of return fire.

    Since you know exactly who is going to be targeted, you can rehearse together (use pellet guns if you have them) to figure out the best lines of fire. Remember the agents’ vehicles could be in the way, so you have to account for that during rehearsals. You should also try to predict how the agents might take cover once they realize they are being shot at. Another thing to consider – I cannot overemphasize this – is how to minimize the chance of accidentally hitting passers-by.

  16. Gallery Guy says:

    @AS

    Alright, that sounds great! It’s just gonna be tough finding people to join me. Many people who are opposed to Trump around where I live aren’t the most sincere leftists around, but I’ll come up with a strategy.

    I also really need to get back in shape. I used to do boxing and tae kwon doe when I was younger, but I haven’t done them in awhile. I’m probably gonna have to take up kickboxing lessons for now since it’s the cheapest option available to me (I’m unfortunately just a delivery driver who barely makes above minimum wage in the state where I live).

  17. John Johnson says:

    @AS
    “Those agents should have been shot. It would have been justified self-defence against kidnapping, which is what “arrest” without warrant is.”

    I doubt that would hold up in court, unfortunately.

    Rodriguez committed two grave errors (which could have prevented him from being arrested):
    * He voluntarily left his house and entered into a conversation with the agents.
    * He told the agents he was not a citizen.

    The Fifth Amendment states citizens do not have to give self-incriminating information. This is commonly called “the right to remain silent”, which should always be observed.

  18. NuminousSun says:

    It has always amazed me how many people don’t take the fifth. I learned that the hard way at a very young age unfortunately.

  19. NuminousSun says:

    …especially in a country built on racism I might add.

  20. AS says:

    @JJ

    Thank you for the additional information. Then the agents should have been shot before Rodriguez even had a chance to commit those grave errors. Without a warrant, the agents were trespassing just by remaining on the private property after being told they were unwelcome, and additionally were displaying threatening behaviour.

  21. AS says:

    ICE just keeps getting more tyrannical:

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/04/18/first-protected-dreamer-deported-under-trump/100583274/

    Montes had left his wallet in a friend’s car, so he couldn’t produce his ID or proof of his DACA status and was told by agents he couldn’t retrieve them. Within three hours, he was back in Mexico

    Spokeswoman Jenny Burke said the department had no record of him renewing his DACA status after it expired in 2015, even though Montes’ attorneys provided a copy of his work authorization card that showed his DACA status was valid through 2018.

    This is the exact kind of tyranny the Second Amendment was written in anticipation of! What are local communities waiting for? Just shoot the agents already!

  22. Legion says:

    @Miecz

    Is that supposed to be Hamas?

  23. @Legion

    Hamas does have green headbands, though their’s are thicker from what I have seen, and the writing is different too. Whatever group that is, it’s clearly an Islamic group that’s been infiltrated by Jews.

    @fans of video games in this forum
    Who has played HALO? There is religious symbolism in the game that can easily be seen as anti-Zionist. The bad guys, the Covenant Empire (a reference to the Covenant with YHWH in the Old Testament), are basically out to do a galaxy wide Samson Option since they think it will make them holy. This Empire is quite mixed racially, but the leaders are these three prophets that look and act quite Jew/Rabbi-like, thus the races under them are their useful idiot goys. Anyways, some interesting symbolism there.

  24. NuminousSun says:

    @Miecz:

    I played HALO a little back in the day, interesting analysis. Currently I’m playing Black Desert Online, and there are some very Pro-Vegan sentiments in that game. In one of the many quests you come across a huge brutish giant who is laying under a tree and feeding chickens. I cannot remember everything he says, but he claims the chickens are his friends and they don’t mind that he eats them, another character asks him, “why would you eat your friends?”. I’m currently playing on a European server, and the other day we had some American right-wing wing-nut ranting about liberals and the like. Long story short, I ended up making a very Pro-Palestinian anti-Democratic argument in general chat that surprisingly most were sympathetic to. I also stated I was a National Socialist. I started getting guild invites after that. Times are a definitely changing…

  25. Gallery Guy says:

    @NS

    I may sound obnoxious right now, but after playing a bit of “Breathe of the Wild”, I honestly can’t stand 3D video games. I’ve never been that big into them, but I did not really hate them either. However, after playing “Breathe of the Wild”, I officially can’t stand them.

  26. AS says:

    @GG

    “I honestly can’t stand 3D video games”

    You have potential. I am an exclusive 2D gamer myself.

    I view the introduction of 3D into video games as analogous to the introduction of Western civilization into the world.

  27. Gallery Guy says:

    @AS

    I can see what you mean by how “western” video games have become.

    What are some of your favorite video games though? I have a Nintendo 3DS that I use to play a lot of games that I used to play growing up, but I’m starting to think that some of these games (such as Pokémon) are rather immoral.

    Hell, even when I was growing up I was I used to imagine a “positive relationship” between Pokémon and humans in the Pokémon games, but I was also taken aback from my fellow peers who used to exclaim excitement that they killed “Pokémon” in battles, even though that wasn’t even in the case in the game.

  28. Miles Saturni says:

    Speaking of games: has anyone here ever played Chaos Rings II? I strongly recommend it. The game is 100% Gnostic, even if that doesn’t seem the case in the beginning (there’s a plot twist).
    It was originally made for iOS and Android, and later re-released for the PS Vita together with the other titles of the Chaos Rings franchise (the first 2 games story-wise are not that interesting, they don’t have strong Aryan-themes like CR II; I haven’t played CR III so I can’t speak about that).

    For some reason unknown to me Square Enix ended the distribution of the game, so right now to play it someone would need to either pirate it or buy the PSVita collection. It think it would be a great game to review, but I myself cannot recall a lot of details of the story.

  29. NuminousSun says:

    @GG:

    I hadn’t heard of Breathe of the Wild, interesting. MMO’s can be very hit-or-miss I suppose, and most of them miss for me. I haven’t played a console game in well over a decade, I just don’t find gaming consoles that appealing anymore. Virtual Reality is actually where I draw the line personally, that is not appealing to me in the slightest. Chess and Billards are still my all time favorite games though, and I’m a lot more serious when it comes to both of those games then I ever will be over a video game. The other great thing about MMO’s is you can sell your account, sometimes for a substantial amount of money, when you get bored with the game. Chess and Pool have never bored me, but video games usually end up doing so.

  30. NuminousSun says:

    @AS:

    Couldn’t video games in general be considered Western, along with computers in general?

  31. NuminousSun says:

    I would actually consider both Western…

  32. NuminousSun says:

    Some could argue that modern day personal computers wouldn’t be possible with out the mathematical work of Alan Turing, who helped the British crack the Third Reich’s Enigma code. I’ve actually heard this argument before…

  33. NuminousSun says:

    I can honestly say that I probably wouldn’t own a personal computer unless I needed to, and I held out on a cellphone until August of 2016. I absolutely despise cellphones, and would never have gotten one if I didn’t need one to make money.

    So, perhaps I’m not the best person to talk to about video games…

  34. Gallery Guy says:

    @NS

    I remember readings the main site’s article about technology awhile back, and I think computers are fine, according to the standards of the article, but only as long as they’re not used as machines. Computers can help people establish people’s art. For instance, my friends and I can “act” out an artistic scenario in which we make, or I can use a computer to establish it in the form of a video game (thus, the computer is used as an automation).

    Plus, computer programming was started way before Turing. I think the person who really introduced it was Lord Byron’s daughter.

    And my main problem with “Breathe of the Wild” is that it’s way too big without even a decent plot. The creators even explained that they made the game to create a massive and interactive world. It’s rather redundant and has too much “substance over style”. Plus, I hate broiling meat in the game…

  35. Gallery Guy says:

    @NS

    Also, I only own a 3DS, a smart phone, and a desktop. I only use my 3DS to play retro games and just one Mickey Mouse game that came out in 2012. I wish I could ditch my smartphone but I need it for work. I also only played “Breathe of the Wild” at a fellow employee’s house while we were discussing our work hours. Safe to say that I had more fun discussing work with my fellow employee than playing “Breathe of the Wild”!

  36. NuminousSun says:

    @GG:

    Speaking of smartphones and making music, checkout the ‘Tize’ app. The only thing I really like about my smartphone really.

    Aren’t machines involved in the production of personal computing hardware and software. I don’t think some of those components could even be produced by human hands?

  37. Gallery Guy says:

    @NS

    I’ll check out the app!

    Also, technology itself is capable of all sorts of things that other individual entities can’t do. It’s acceptable when it helps out individuals in their everyday life. Hardware and software, while constituted differently from, say, a human, can be fine as long as they operate in a way that humans can do, such as acting out one’s imagination. (For instance, I can pretend to be a wizard of grand power fighting evil in a play, or I can just make a video game about such scenario.) I see computers no diffrent from violins in this respect. A violin is a way for another individual entity to create art that it can already normally do with his own physical and mental constitution.

    Also, AS, what’s your opinion?

  38. NuminousSun says:

    @AS:

    I also don’t understand the whole 2D compared to 3D argument, considering that 2D games are more often than not shaded in a way as to give a 3D appearance? Even in most 3D games the textures are still 2D?

  39. NuminousSun says:

    @GG:

    I see your point about the violin, but a computer chip still requires machines to be produced?

  40. AS says:

    @GG

    “What are some of your favorite video games though?”

    Since you own a 3DS, do you know River City Ransom?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7xeGpoCScs

    This is also a good example of my previous point. Compare the non-Western and Western promo illustrations for this same game:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0e/Downtown_Nekketsu_Monogatari_game_cover.jpg

    http://www.mobygames.com/images/covers/large/1343826701-00.jpg

    Already you can see the difference in perception. In Western eyes, the in-game 2D (including SD characters) are a poor graphical representation (due to insufficient computer power) of what is ‘actually’ supposed to be 3D (and non-SD), which is why its promo illustration depicts them this way. This is hubris. In non-Western eyes, on the other hand, the 2D/SD are entirely satisfactory as-is, hence its promo art feels no need to depict it differently than the in-game look.

    This is not an isolated case; this was a consistent pattern of divergence back in the 80s. Here is the gameplay of Athena:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6NDmYzst_0

    And the contrasting promo illustrations (I don’t even need to say which is the Western one):

    https://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/snk/images/2/27/Athena_flyer.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20080805205149

    https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/snk/images/f/ff/Princess_with_pointy_ears_%26_muscles.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20131122205727

    Exact same phenomenon. Clearly the non-Western mind is content with the in-game 2D, whereas the Western mind considers the in-game 2D to be merely an immature phase along the way of progress towards 3D – it was just a matter of waiting for computer power to be able to render 3D and thereby catch up with its promo illustration.

    Fast forward to the 90s, and the popularity of the Street Fighter games spawned numerous imitations by other companies.

    Non-Western imitations:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abH5V6TofJU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac65Nf9HmKI

    Western imitations:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW7r2w8SsN0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgTLx2-rM1w

    Exact same phenomenon again, except now computer power is gradually becoming sufficient to support the Western vision, so now it is an issue of non-Western developers choosing to stick with 2D despite 3D being available (and increasingly more convenient to animate in than 2D where sprites have to be drawn frame by frame).

    If you need another example, compare the non-Western treatment of the Alien vs Predator concept:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFAa3BE8230

    with the Western treatment:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlZTfQAQaoY

    It’s as though the Western aim is to create within virtual space yet another material world as realistic as the real material world, whereas the non-Western aim is to use virtual space to help people momentarily forget the real material world in favour of a much simpler world.

    The spread of 3D accelerated from the 2000s onwards, including among formerly non-Western developers becoming increasingly Westernized. Compare Metroid Fusion:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgdA3C6IKkM

    with Metroid Prime:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJsyOSC_oTw

    So 15 years ago I stopped following new releases because it was just too depressing. I would rather play Liquid Kids again:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6SJxSVBAeU

  41. Coyotl says:

    There’s a fair amount of games (usually indie) these days coming out in some form of 2D. Shovel Knight, Hotline Miami, LISA, Rabi-Ribi, Terraria, Touhou, Stardew Valley, AM2R (Metroid fangame) are just some of the games I’ve played in past few years and they are all fairly new games. There’s a LOT more. It’s an interesting trend considering it goes against the grain (at least in the west) and these games are fairly popular. Many of these are superior to cookie-cutter open-world/FPS 3D games that come out so often these days.

    But while I agree that graphics race is awful, it’s hard to throw out all 3D games despite some having good gameplay or powerful narratives. I was born into the start of the 3D generation though so I have nostalgia for N64/PS1/XBOX-era games.

  42. Gallery Guy says:

    @NS

    Well, most things that are automations can becomd machines. A computer and its components are just one of those things.

    @AS

    Honestly, I see what you mean. I always preferred 2D games over 3D, whereas my peers preferred vice-versa. I always felt like I was in a simpler world when I played those games. A classic example would be the “Legend of Zelda” series. I always loved the 2D Zelda games on the GameBoy systems over the 3D Zelda games. (My only qualm with the 2D Zelda games were that they were a bit harder and more confusing than the 3D Zelda games, and I often wonder if the developers did that on purpose or simply due to incompetence).

    Also, I’ll check out those games you mentioned. The only one that I recognize is “Metroid Fusion” tho. I haven’t played that game in awhile.

    By the way though, the only exception in 3D video games that occurred for me is when the plot of a 3D video game interested me, such as the plot of the first “Kingdom Hearts” game. Although, the “Kingdom Hearts” game series is an interesting one. The first game had a rather simple plot to it, which I’m guessing is due to pressure that Square Enix was receiving from Disney to make a good, selling game, which was best established with simplicity in their minds. However, after the success of the first game, Disney let Square Enix loose on what to make and now we have the abominable series that we have today with so many overly complicated plot points and characters!

    There is even one point in “Kingdom Hearts” series where time traveling comes to play! In my opinion, time traveling is usually one of the worst plot points in any story, with only a few exceptions.

  43. Gallery Guy says:

    @Coyotl

    I can’t stand FPS games; and the last 3rd-person shooting game I played was Resident Evil 4. I only played that game out of interest for the zombie genre I once had a fondness for, but, even back then, I didn’t really get into it. I’d rather just play “Contra”.
    @AS

    I wanna correct myself. I know what “Street Fighter” is. I’ve never actually played a “Street Fighter” game in my life, but I am familiar with the series.

  44. Numinous_Sun says:

    Computers and cellphones have made my life more complicated, not easier.

    “I’m all down for the anti-Western thing, as long as I don’t have to give up my computer chips and cellphone…”, sounds like what this thread is about now.

    Personal computing is a western phenomenon. My mother has never owned a cellphone, and probably never will. I held out as long as I could…

    “Alan Turing: The Father of Modern Computer Science. Alan Turing is considered by many to be the father of modern computer science as the world knows it. He formed the concept of the algorithms and computations with one of his inventions, the Turing machine.” https://www.cctvcamerapros.com/Alan-Turing-Computer-Science-s/369.htm

    “A study by a team at the United Nations University in Tokyo has found that, weight for weight, the average computer chip does more harm to the environment than the car.” BBC: Chips cost environment dear

  45. Numinous_Sun says:

    @AS:

    I see more ‘potential’ in children actually playing with each other like they used to in my youth. We were always outside, digging stuff up, climbing trees, exploring ruins and abandoned houses, etc. It wasn’t until I moved to America that I got into video games. We ended up moving a lot, so eventually I gave up on making new friends. That’s when I turned to video games. Eventually I got into Billiards and Chess, and no video game even comes close to the level of interest those games spark in me. They take true mastery to become good at. Not only that, but the mental and physical health of the individual come into play, and can affect the outcome. I suppose those factors can also come into play in professional video game tournaments, but most of those are team play anyway… I’ve tried various Billiard video games, I get bored with in about 10 minutes. Every Billiard table has it’s own character, just like a person. Playing chess online would be entertaining if the vast amount of players didn’t use their computers to cheat. If I wanted to play a computer in Chess, I would just do that…

    I can also state that most people don’t play MMO’s because they want to ‘escape’ into a more simple life, but because they like the characters they can play, and think that the different armor sets artists have created look cool, and want to see ‘their’ character wearing them. That’s it. That is literally what most MMO’s like World of Warcraft, Tera, Black Desert Online, etc., all boil down to. The tier 5 Warlock and Priest armor sets in World of Warcraft are still some of the most popular armor sets ever created in the MMO genre, for example. However, what is that all worth considering the environmental impact of personal computing?

    I will be ditching my computer and cellphone at the first possible opportunity, I can tell you that much. I also haven’t talked to anyone who states that personnel computing technology has made their lives easier. Maybe to make money in a technology driven world, but that’s it. I tell those people they may want to ditch theirs first opportunity as well, and some agree that they would if they could.

    I’ve also had to tell quite a few people online that they need to get out more. I also do not see how promoting video games falls in line with Hitlerian National Socialist ideals?

  46. Gallery Guy says:

    @NS

    Personal computers and software apps are often used as machines; I won’t deny that. I just don’t think there’s anything wrong with using them to express yourself artistically or for reasons related to communication. It’s like using a crayon to draw a picture. Yeah, we can’t draw with our own hands like a crayon can, but it shouldn’t be necessarily frowned upon. I should note that many of these technological devices that can corrupt the mind should be abstained from use when necessary and proper.

    I should also note that my discussion of video games so far has been from an artistic standpoint. I always have thought video games to be a form of art. There may be times when 3D graphics are necessary and proper for it’s technical aspects that could help individuals in their routines.

    Also, where are you originally from if you don’t mind me asking?

  47. Gallery Guy says:

    @NS

    Actually, maybe only the graphics of video games can be considered ‘art’, but I think you get what I mean.

  48. @NS
    Alan Turing did crack the Third Reich’s Enigma code with some pioneering computer work, however the first ever programmable computer was made by the German Konrad Zuse in the 1930s. Zuse never joined the NSDAP and seemed to hold an apathetic position toward politics, in general, as his science work took up all of his time and attention. Since he didn’t need to be “denazified” after the war, he managed to resume his work in Germany around 1949, but the Soviets probably stole some of his blueprints and original prototype designs. Anyway, it’s a shame that the NSDAP didn’t put more in his work, because like with the StG44 and Me262, it ended up being too little too late.

    But as far as Zuse being very focused on his work, this allows him to fit into Plato’s notion of mastering a “Techne” (a work applicable skill). For this thread, this means all those who love video games, see if you’d be any good at making them. If this fits with your aptitudes then make a game!

  49. Ganbaru says:

    Nice to see that 2D games are getting some love here.

    Sharing this for the Fusion fans :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD_wU8P8ZxA
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH9Yw-dm20g

    @Coyotl

    I’ve played AM2R and Shovel Knight and they are great games. I’m in the same boat as you with the PS1 nostalgia, I really wish I had a SNES instead when I was younger.

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